who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

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JanBros
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who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by JanBros » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:04 am

2 years ago, I emptied an original head so I could fit changeable combustion chambers in it. everything worked ok, except there wasn't enough material on the outside next to the outer O-ring that sealed the coolant and so it cracked ( viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7529&hilit=inserts )

last winter I designed a head in Solidworks and hoped my sons school would make it, but it seems a dead end. So I made some enquiries to companies to have an idea of what it would cost. it's not a definit price offer, just a indication based on the print screens I send them.

one head is on the expensive side (300 euro's), but for 5 , the price comes down to 120 a piece, and for 10 it would only be 100 euro which is, in my opinion a bargain. Hell, If I can find 7 others that would want one, I'd take 3 myself and that would still be the same than having made just 1 :D .

so what do you get for this price :

just the head :

Image

Image

some details :

* head is slightly bigger in dimensions to cure the problem mentionned above (thought I added about 2 mm of material next to the O-ring, so 4mm longer/wider)
* holes for the KIPS-seals are doubled in depth, so you can stack 2 seals on top of each other for better sealing. and if you KIPS would get grooved, you can use just one seal and move it at different heights to seal on non-grooved surface
* holes for the radiator bracked are slightly moved forward for easier design (in case I was going to mill it myself) but don't thinck one would notice the difference.
* holes in the middle are just there to save some weight


what else is needed ?

* I didn't include the mountings for the KIPS cables, as it would mean too much loss of aluminium that needs to be milled away (same for the setup-marking). instead, there is a thread and a hole for each cable mounting : just some simple blocks fitted with a pin in the head, and the threadto bolt it onto the head and secure the cable . I didn't make this for the setup marker as it is not nescecary in my opinion.
* 2 water pipes to be bolted onto the head
* a Y-part so the 2 hoses can go into one . A GPX600R has the perfect thermostat housing for this , nr 16160 : http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/K ... parts.html and should be found very cheap second hand.
* sealing of the water arround the KIPS valves. this is done by a small adjustment on the barrels : the hole for the KIPS needs to be widened just a bit (2mm bigger diameter, 1cm or so deep), so an O-ringed bush can be placed on top of the valve and seated onto the bigger diameter, like this :

Image

(just this one has a flaw : the O-ring needs to be on the outside of the bush and not in the middle so it seals against the head, the cylinder and the bush , but don't have a picture of the ones I ran)


* have your inserts made by someone with a lath

I was thinking of turning my own water pipes and milling myself some KIPS-cables mounting blocks, but if a small series is made I would let the shop do them to.

My guess is that even for 5 units, a total price of under 200euro must be possible. this would include the head, 2 waterpipes, 2 KIPS cables mounting blocks and 1 complete set of viton O-rings. things to do yourself is make the inserts and make the KIPS-valves seals in the cylinder (I could turn them easily myself for you guys, but I thinck it is best to first have the KIPS-holes in the cylinders made bigger and then turn the bushes according to that size).
a very reasinable price, considering once you have it, it no more gets damaged when the engine fails, just a new insert required which is pretty cheap to make , the racers can easily try out different head designs cheap or have different inserts for different tracks, and we can save the original heads for the people who want "all original".

This is all premature and can not say when it would all be ready, as it is just informel at the moment, just testing the water for interest and to know if I have to make more designs for the water pipes/KIPS blocks or not.

Any ideas to improve the head or desired alterations (flaws in my design anyone ?) welcomed.

interested :
JanBros (maybe 2)
Luders
Top Shaggy
Jarno
RalfK
Ozzy1 (maybe 2)
Last edited by JanBros on Mon May 19, 2014 10:18 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Luders
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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by Luders » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:20 am

I'm tentatively interested Jan

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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by Top-shaggy » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:30 am

I'm interested too Jan ..
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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by jarno » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:37 am

i am interested to jan..


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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by scooble » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:22 am

with the amount of head gaskets I get through, I'm sure it would pay for itself in no time, so I'm interested

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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by TwoStroke Institute » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:17 pm

Jan a couple of things
Boring out the KIPS seal holes leaves very little room for the o ring. CNC machining the top of the cylinder and machining the head to take inserts would reduce the cost by half.

I can't understand the drawing ? Something to consider is the o ring is just to stop water getting into the combustion chamber , it is not for sealing the combustion pressure. You insert design must have a slight raised part between the edge of the squish and the o ring groove. That does the sealing, if you have the groove in the cylinder no need to do that.

Why not use a by pass thermostat they are so easy to CNC . There have been a few advancements in insert /head design recently to and I think you could do with some raised ribs on the back of the cover for rigidity.

Have you made a .IGES/.STL file? I can give you a email of a fellow in the US who can quote you on doing the job.
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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by JanBros » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:21 pm

TwoStroke Institute wrote:Jan a couple of things
Boring out the KIPS seal holes leaves very little room for the o ring. CNC machining the top of the cylinder and machining the head to take inserts would reduce the cost by half.
that is not possible Lozza. as you can see on the picture, my way of sealing the KIPS even creates extra material, because I make use of the extra space available between the colar on top of the KIPS and its bore. This way the O-ring has about the size of the KIPS bore.
If you want to seal the KIPS from within the head, you need an O-ring that's at least 4mm bigger in diameter (1mm to have some material, and than again 1mm for the O-ring (but then you only use a 1mm O-ring and it's better to use a bigger one (1.5 or 2mm) in my opinion. This way you have even less space for the cylinder O-ring.

I can't understand the drawing ? Something to consider is the o ring is just to stop water getting into the combustion chamber , it is not for sealing the combustion pressure. You insert design must have a slight raised part between the edge of the squish and the o ring groove. That does the sealing, if you have the groove in the cylinder no need to do that.
the drawing is the water-sealing on top of the head, where the insert protrudes the head. just to show it's double. I prefer both ways : the one in the bore keeps the insert in place (lessens the chance they fall out and get damaged), but there isn't much pressure on them (too tight and there is the possibility to damage the O-ring when inserting. The one at the bottom will actualy seal the water, because it will be pressed firmly when tightning the head down (It won't be round like in the drawing).

the sealing of the combustion chamber is up to the one making the inserts.
not use a by pass thermostat they are so easy to CNC
anyone can use what they want. I just wanted to show there is a cheap solution for those the will use it on the road and use a thermostat (like me). Racers will probably have no need for a thermosat and can use whatever they want.
There have been a few advancements in insert /head design recently to
any links/more info ?
and I think you could do with some raised ribs on the back of the cover for rigidity.
you mean on top of the head ? in my design there is already probably 2 times more material connecting both heads
Have you made a .IGES/.STL file? I can give you a email of a fellow in the US who can quote you on doing the job.
no, only thing I have is what SW saved them like : .SDLPRT .

and having them made in the US of A is no prob for me, but having them made AND shipped AND cleared by the customs for less money would be a big surprise for me. But since aquote costs nothing ... :wink:

mind you : I apreciate what you are saying and please anyone, keep asking questions/making remarks. :idea: I thinck I've got everything covered but it's not that I want to be the wise guy who knows it all better. I want to have it spot on and right from the first time, so who knows someone finds something ... :wink:
Last edited by JanBros on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by JanBros » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:22 pm

Well, that's already 5 people intersted \:D/ so I will ptake it to the next step :)
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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by TwoStroke Institute » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:01 am

O ring in the top of the cylinder is the best way to seal that's how all the OEM cylinders are but if there are no other options.
The water not going close to the plug threads is a bad idea(a bit more on that later).
For a design for inserts you would be best to closely follow or pay homage to the 56mm VHM insert :wink: They don't cost much to CNC.

We fit thermostats to all race bikes much easier than tape and hope.

You want some ribs on the top of the insert cover as believe it or not the a inserted head flexes a LOT under combustion pressures, much more than a homogenius head.

It's a while since I played with SW but when you save a file you can choose the format from the drop down box, IGES/STL will make it eaiser for CNC shops to import the file into their systems.

Some interesting pic here :wink:
http://www.pixum.nl/mijn-fotos/#album/4734967
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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by RalfK » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:24 pm

I'm interested too Jan.

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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by JanBros » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:04 pm

TwoStroke Institute wrote:O ring in the top of the cylinder is the best way to seal that's how all the OEM cylinders are but if there are no other options.
I don't know if it's best, and I have no reason not to believe you. but it has 1 big downside in my vieuw : every time you use another/new cylinder, you have to make a new groove. I can do that at home, but not everyone has a mill or lath at their disposal. If you put the O-ring in the insert, it's a 5 minutes extra work to make it. I'll take that option :mrgreen: .

The water not going close to the plug threads is a bad idea(a bit more on that later).
For a design for inserts you would be best to closely follow or pay homage to the 56mm VHM insert :wink: They don't cost much to CNC.
ok, see what you mean, will adjust my design accordingly.
Image

Image
want some ribs on the top of the insert cover as believe it or not the a inserted head flexes a LOT under combustion pressures, much more than a homogenius head.
but if I look at any VHM head, they are all very thin (like in the picture above) ? where as mine is I thinck 8 or 10 mm thick (I need enough material for the threads for the KIPS-cables blocks). Got any pictures of what you mean ?
a while since I played with SW but when you save a file you can choose the format from the drop down box, IGES/STL will make it eaiser for CNC shops to import the file into their systems.
ok, saw that. but one can just open it and still save it as any of those files.
Last edited by JanBros on Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by johntimo » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:45 pm

I played with SW but when you save a file you can choose the format from the drop down box.









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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by TwoStroke Institute » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:40 am

JanBros wrote:
TwoStroke Institute wrote:O ring in the top of the cylinder is the best way to seal that's how all the OEM cylinders are but if there are no other options.
I don't know if it's best, and I have no reason not to believe you. but it has 1 big downside in my vieuw : every time you use another/new cylinder, you have to make a new groove. I can do that at home, but not everyone has a mill or lath at their disposal. If you put the O-ring in the insert, it's a 5 minutes extra work to make it. I'll take that option :mrgreen
That's probably a good enough reason to put the o ring in the head. Check your email
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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by Christoph » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:04 pm

I´m interested too Jan.

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Re: who is interested in a CNC head with inserts ?

Post by ozzy1 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:55 am

Add me for 1 also please. (Or if u need to make up numbers i will go for 2. )

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