Std Ign Mod

mj43 · Post by **mj43** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:20 pm

Mark the main limitation of the stock ignition is the top end where it appears to retard the ignition to protect the engine (in built warranty claim deflector)
Simply advancing the ignition on the timing plate is a very crude approach and I suspect won't do much. The programmable ignitions allow you to tailor the curve to best suit your engine. But this needs to be done carefully otherwise you will spend hundreds on engine rebuilds and shortened race meetings - you have been there and done it so you know what I am saying.

maccas · Post by **maccas** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:55 pm

Yep you can shift the stock ignition curve up and down the rev range by slotting the pick up etc. but at the end of the day its a compromise set up. You might have gained more advance up top where it needed more but at the same time you will have gained more advance down at the bottom which may be costing you horsepower and reliability.

The programmable ignitions allow you to tailor the curve to best suit your engine. But this needs to be done carefully otherwise you will spend hundreds on engine rebuilds and shortened race meetings

What MJ has said here is bang on the money, i have been playing with programmable ignitions for the past 6 months or so on my KR and 3xv and have 2 or 3 knackered pistons from the 3xv to show for it. There is no substitute for getting the ignition properly set up on the dyno with someone who knows what they are doing and can understand how changes to the ignition curve will alter the engines behaviour.

Dan

Luders · Post by **Luders** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:21 pm

Agreed Dan, I think for what a zeel or igni costs, it's a small price to pay for something you can setup accurately on the dyno and actually get some meaningful gains out of.

This moving of the pickup is all a bit finger in the air roughness to me.

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:17 pm

So the programable units allow for advance but also altering of the curve also(setting amount of advance at desired position in the rev range), think I understand now, still will look at adjustable pickup as I enjoy "finger in the wind roughness" as you know, need to get my dyno out to see if it works though.

Which unit would suit the kr best, at Cadwell Ben suggested the ignitec as it is more plug and play than the zeeltronic and I am not after lots of available uses from the unit, would like to alter ignition to suit motor, quick shift facility, accurate rev counter and posible shift light, think any thing else may just confuse me even more than I am.

scooble · Post by **scooble** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:21 pm

back in the 250 proddy days, I set mine up with a dial gauge, can't remember the exact figure, I know it wasn't much, but it felt like it gave a bit of a boost in the midrange

maccas · Post by **maccas** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:35 pm

Yep you can set the ignition curve however you want pretty much with a max of 12 curve points.

Both units are good, the zeel is easier to program, none of the units are directly plug and play. They both need setting up for the bike in question. What i mean by this is you need to check that the programmed advance corresponds to real advance using a dial gauge and a strobe light.

The zeel comes with a programmed curve specifically for the KR but as mentioned still needs checking to see if the programmed advance corresponds to real advance. The zeel comes with 2 of the plugs needed but not the 3rd 3 pin plug.

The ignitech is cheaper and has many many features but isn't quite as versatile as you can only adjust advance in 1 degree increments.

Lots of plus/minus points, if anyone wants me to write a set up guide for a programmable ignition let me know.

Dan

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:42 pm

JanBros suggests his was 2mm on piston travel which I think equats to about 6 degree, this would take advance to 19.5 at 1200 rpm and 31 at 5000+ rpm, also it woud raise the overrun by the same,
I presume this is what it would do.

maccas · Post by **maccas** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:56 pm

13.5 degrees is 0.864mm advance so by advancing it by 2mm gives 2.864mm which is 24.8 degrees which sounds alot.

If it was advance to 2mm then that would be 20.6 degrees. This is all upto 1200 rpm

So first option raises curve by 11.3 degrees and second option raises the curve by 7.1 degrees which would shift peak advance upto about 11600 rpm instead of 11000rpm

Dan

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:31 pm

JanBros suggests his was 2mm on piston travel which I think equats to about 6 degree, this would take advance to 19.5 at 1200 rpm and 31 at 5000+ rpm, also it woud raise the overrun by the same,
I presume this is what it would do.

mj43 · Post by **mj43** » Tue May 01, 2012 7:53 am

Experimenting is the fun part - that is why I love ring-a-dings much easier to play with than fourstrokes. However, it is also easy to cross the line between stable and reliable and a motor that is a grenade. Find the limit and then back it off a hp or two.

Do not over compress, do not over advance and do not raise the exhaust port too high. All three are a recipe for a nuked motor.

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Tue May 01, 2012 8:30 am

porting and flowing I seem to have got to grips with, Anglesey motor was over compressed and I learnt a little from that, now with the advance, will be very cautious and use an old motor, will also look at programable unit as this seems the way to go.

JanBros · Post by **JanBros** » Tue May 01, 2012 11:05 am

Rocket wrote:JanBros suggests his was 2mm on piston travel which I think equats to about 6 degree, this would take advance to 19.5 at 1200 rpm and 31 at 5000+ rpm, also it woud raise the overrun by the same,
I presume this is what it would do.

correction : I don't suggest this. When I bought my first KR, it was for racing in a non-license holders league in Belgium, some 17 years ago (still running the same papers of that bike, but appart from that, I'm afraid nothing much survived the years, not even the fram

).

I had it tuned by a Dutchman who had been Dutch 250-series champion with a KR1S. It was a strong motor( he showed me lot's of dyno's of different motor's all making between 70-73 BHP), but you have to remember that everything on that engine was matched ! And I had to run octanebooster, or the engine would nuke itself instantly.

So don't just advance the ignition 2mm, or do it at your own risk

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Tue May 01, 2012 12:42 pm

The motor I wish to alter is a unit I have spent alot of time getting right, flowing cases, porting barrels, new modified pistons, recon crank, inlet manifolds and everything is matched to each other.

However I will experiment on a running but tired motor which needs a complete rebuild to see if the mods work and what results I get.

I usually run 50/50 avgas/super plus but also have octanebooster if I need it(don't think it is allowed in club racing though).

I will advance in stages and always do everything at my own risk(unfortunatly involve other people sometimes though, depending on how close they are at the time or how far the tools get thrown)

Have look at ignitec and zeeltronic sites and alittle confused as to which units will work as ther is lots listed(zeel list for kr1s but no prices, igni have prices but don't list which unit to use, will buy a zeel at igni price me thinks!)

maccas · Post by **maccas** » Tue May 01, 2012 1:40 pm

Zeeltronic:

Really easy to program via the usb cable (50 euros) and software (free). After sales advice from Borut is very good, he replies to emails quickly.

There are a few options:

PCDI-10V/K single channel cdi, which is the one listed on the website for a kr1s, this is an ac-dc cdi like the standard KR unit, has shift light, quick shift, stores 2 ignition curves, 1 PV curve, ignition curves are made with between 4 and 10 points. Costs about 190 euros I think

PDCI-11V single channel, this is a dc-dc cdi that doesn't need the high voltage coils on the stator and just runs off the 12v from the stator/battery. More advanced than pcdi-10v, can program powerjets/ airjets, stores 2 ignition curves and 5 PV curves. Ign curves are made with between 4 and 12 points. approx 230 euros

PDCI-20V twin channel, same features as PDCI-11V but can run both cylinders separately by adding another pick up next to the flywheel 180 degrees around from the original. Approx 250 euros. I'm using this one on my KR but just running one channel at the moment, at some point I will add another pick up so I can run each channel separately.

Ignitech:

DC-CDI P2 RACE is the one to have from ignitech, its a 2 channel cdi like the pdci-20v but has many many more features than the zeel. Cheaper too but won't come with a KR specific map. Lots of options on programming, can be a bit confusing on what some of the features actually do. After sales isn't up to much going on other peoples experiences. 180 euros

Dan

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Wed May 02, 2012 8:24 am

mods done and fitted to spare motor on bench, when checked with degree wheel looks like I can get upto an extra 6 degree advance on top of standard(13.5 + 6 = 19.5 and 25 + 6 = 31), measured this roughly as I don't have dial gauge (with the full 6 degree extra advance) an approx 2 mm piston travel BTDC gives approx 30 to 31 degree total advance.