Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Show us that box of bits in your shed!
User avatar
Buldogo2
lurker
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:42 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by Buldogo2 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:40 am

Hello everyone, I'm reading this forum for some years now and got a lot of inspiration out of it.

about 2 years ago, I bought a frame and engine from Jarno to start my dream project.
It is pretty slow going, my main hobby is competing in the Dutch ZAC Sports 1000 Competition with my 08 zx-10r. And money flies over there :shock: .

But, I taught that it is time to share my progress on the KR1 here :).

A bit of info first:
The plan is to take the KR1S, and bring it to the twenty-first century.
To do this i have,
zx6r 03/04 forks.
RS250 MK1 swingarm and linkage.
R6 2012 rear shock
zx6r 09+ subframe and al the rear plastics
er6-f rear wheel
zx6r front wheel
er6 disk rotors
zx10r 08 break callipers on the front
zx6r 2016 rear break calliper
er6-f throttle bodies
zx10r 08 wiring loom and gage cluster

and of Corse some misc. parts and custom goodies

The list is not yet complete, still figuring out what to do with the fuel tank and fairings.

Well, info info for now, lets post some pic's 8).

Project start:
Image

Rear side figured out:
Image

Some geometry work:
Image

Machine work to frame and swingarm:
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Test assembly:
Image

Current status:
Image

This is a global overview of the project so far, and will try to update this over time.

PS
I will do my best, but English is nog my first language forgive me for that ;).
Life is racing, Racing is life

User avatar
KR-1R
Premix Junkie
Posts: 1513
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:24 am

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by KR-1R » Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:01 am

.
.
be cool to see a fuelie KR
a couple 9f people in Australia and New Zealand have trod the path of injection

User avatar
Buldogo2
lurker
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:42 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by Buldogo2 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:18 pm

My thoughts exactly.
I know it is tricky business to get EFI on a 2 stroke, hoping to get it done.

First priority for now is to get a roller and to get all the frame work done.
Life is racing, Racing is life

User avatar
Binetta Steve
Oil Injector
Posts: 915
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:13 pm
Location: North Wales

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by Binetta Steve » Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:06 am

Calling Ben Ludders !

User avatar
JanBros
Avgas Sniffer
Posts: 3147
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:50 pm
Location: the land of Francorchamps
Contact:

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by JanBros » Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:24 pm

the higher the BMEP, the more dificult it is to get FI working on a 2-stroke.

I would never ever install it unless it was already well-sorted. Apart from KTM (who stole the idea of transfer port injection from an aussie/New-Zeelander), is there any other manufacturer that has succeeded ?

I'd say : save yourself a lot of trouble... ;-)
My ultimate goal is to die young as late as possible !

User avatar
Buldogo2
lurker
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:42 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by Buldogo2 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:22 pm

JanBros wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:24 pm
the higher the BMEP, the more dificult it is to get FI working on a 2-stroke.

I would never ever install it unless it was already well-sorted. Apart from KTM (who stole the idea of transfer port injection from an aussie/New-Zeelander), is there any other manufacturer that has succeeded ?

I'd say : save yourself a lot of trouble... ;-)
I know it's a "big" challenge, but, if you don't try you won't succeed ;). Also, i'm to far in to go back now. All wiring sensors, the ecu and throttle body's are already sorted.

Beside ktm. You are forgetting somting, the snowmobile world.
Life is racing, Racing is life

Frunobulax
Newbie
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by Frunobulax » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:37 pm

JanBros wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:24 pm
Apart from KTM (who stole the idea of transfer port injection from an aussie/New-Zeelander), is there any other manufacturer that has succeeded ?
MMX 500 SUTER?

User avatar
JanBros
Avgas Sniffer
Posts: 3147
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:50 pm
Location: the land of Francorchamps
Contact:

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by JanBros » Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:04 am

Unless the Suter succesfully finishes a TT of Mann races without problems, I do not call it a success !

And a snowmobole ain't a motorcycle. there is no doubt you can run injection on a 2-stroke engine. The problem is with a high BMEP 2-stroke MOTORCYCLE, as the sensitivity of the system then is VERY important. I've never ridden a snowmobile, but I can not imagine you have to be gentle on the throttle at any tme.

here is a good read about the problem's you might run into : https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/show ... FI-Project
My ultimate goal is to die young as late as possible !

User avatar
Buldogo2
lurker
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:42 am
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by Buldogo2 » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:46 am

JanBros wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:04 am
Unless the Suter succesfully finishes a TT of Mann races without problems, I do not call it a success !

And a snowmobole ain't a motorcycle. there is no doubt you can run injection on a 2-stroke engine. The problem is with a high BMEP 2-stroke MOTORCYCLE, as the sensitivity of the system then is VERY important. I've never ridden a snowmobile, but I can not imagine you have to be gentle on the throttle at any tme.

here is a good read about the problem's you might run into : https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/show ... FI-Project
You are right with the snowmobiles. And as i said before, i know it is difficult and complex. But wanted to gif it a try.

If i can't get it going, i can always go back to the old trusted carps. But i like to be different, and want to give it a go.

Thnx for the warnings, but i already hurt from a lot of people it is to compex. Just let me be a little stubborn ;), i know i am.

The link you added is a perfect read, thank you for thad one!

Now can we move past te EFI is not worth the hassle, for now, the engine isn't even built yet haha.
Stil busy with the back frame and shock mount.
Life is racing, Racing is life

User avatar
KR-1R
Premix Junkie
Posts: 1513
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:24 am

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by KR-1R » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:47 am

here are some videos from back in 2013 from Flettner (kiwibiker forum)

YZ250 injected
https://youtu.be/hOGZ5llowoU


Kawasaki F9 injected

can pick up here
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/show ... YZ-250-EFI

User avatar
KR-1R
Premix Junkie
Posts: 1513
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:24 am

Carbon frame KR-1S. ?

Post by KR-1R » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:14 pm

.
.
your 3D printed shock mount mock up, reminded me of...
some more inspiration,
the carbon fiber chassis ZXR400 (F3)/600 (F2) of Tony McMurdo (NZ)
Image

...built in ya back shed ! raced against 22 year old Bruce Anstey
https://m.facebook.com/www.cycleworks.c ... 92/?type=3

no doubt partly inspired by... UK expat and fellow Wellingtonian Steve Roberts : Plastic Fantastic GSX1000 (Hiscock/Tony Holden)
https://www.oldbikemag.com.au/steve-rob ... her-stars/

and then other mid 80's Ciba-Geigy Heron RG500
http://teamheronsuzuki.blogspot.com/201 ... 4.html?m=1
pics...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/teamheron ... 2107428524

a carbon KR-1S would be one of the simplest frames to reproduce (has always been one of my dreams)
from what I recall Tonys was molded over (rigid PU) foam core (not honeycomb)

Gerrit
Heavy Smoker
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:09 am
Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by Gerrit » Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:02 pm

h***a raced a fuel-injected NSR500 in 1993, ridden by Shinichi Itoh. It had harsh throttle response and Mick Doohan flatly refused to ride it. h***a shelved the project at the end of the season.
In 2000 Aprilia introduced a fuel-injected version of its RSW500 V-twin, but this was only tested in practice and not raced. As Aprilia withdrew from the 500 class at the end of the season this experiment also ended. Ironically the RSW's successor, the 990 four-stroke triple, proved SLOWER than the RSW, setting worse lap times and race averages in 2003 than the RSW did in 1999 and 2000.
KTM's 125 and 250 GP bikes were partly fuel-injected and probably would have become fully injected had the 125s and 250s not been axed.
"Mine is a long and sad tale", said the mouse.
"Indeed it is", said Alice, looking at the mouse's tail.

User avatar
KR-1R
Premix Junkie
Posts: 1513
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:24 am

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by KR-1R » Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:26 am

.
.
the ignition technology since the NSR500V2 and say the Bimota V-Due, has more than doubled in the last 20 years
as have the number of companies making them (remember back in 1990 when a CD ROM burner cost $200,000?)
where we now have ignition systems for 8, 10, 12 cylinders running up to 20,000rpm
they can be rearranged to cope for a 2cylinder 2T running 12,000
...you are just replacing a carb with an injection throttle body.

I think best development time would be a new barrel that can be printed and coated.

Image

"Aluminium (ALSi10Mg) is a typical casting alloy. Parts 3D printed in ALSi10Mg are ideal for applications that require a combination of good thermal properties and low weight. They can be machined, spark-eroded, welded, micro shot-peened, polished and casted if required.

The laser powder bed 3D printing process produces parts that are similar to the T6 heat treated cast parts."

Image

or a traditional casting manufacturer...
http://cpindinc.com/pub/part_list?manufacturer=3
Image

Gerrit
Heavy Smoker
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:09 am
Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by Gerrit » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:55 am

A new barrel could eliminate the weakness of the base flanges by increasing their thickness by 5 mm to 18 mm and also adding a generous fillet which wou;ld do away with the sharp corners where the flanges join the cylinder on the standard part.
"Mine is a long and sad tale", said the mouse.
"Indeed it is", said Alice, looking at the mouse's tail.

User avatar
JanBros
Avgas Sniffer
Posts: 3147
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:50 pm
Location: the land of Francorchamps
Contact:

Re: Kawasaki KR-1RR IFI Build

Post by JanBros » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:52 pm

KR-1R wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:26 am
.
.
the ignition technology since the NSR500V2 and say the Bimota V-Due, has more than doubled in the last 20 years
as have the number of companies making them (remember back in 1990 when a CD ROM burner cost $200,000?)
where we now have ignition systems for 8, 10, 12 cylinders running up to 20,000rpm
they can be rearranged to cope for a 2cylinder 2T running 12,000
...you are just replacing a carb with an injection throttle body.

I think best development time would be a new barrel that can be printed and coated.
the problem isn't the system's themselves. Those from 20 years ago would be fine to.
the problem is : how much fuel needs to be injected.
in a 4 stroke that's easy : measure the air that passses through the inlet tract.
in a 2-stroke, you also need to know what the pipe is going, as the pipe is the big determining factor as to how much air or mixture is in the cylinder after the exhaust as closed.

a "simple 4-stroke" injection system which measures the intake is insufficient. a system based on itake preasure/throttle position does nof know if the pipe is working or not, and by how much. Also, it can take up to 6 revolutions for air/mixture molecules to go from intake to the cylinder.
making a mapping for full-throttle is the easy part, any system can do that, the problem is all the not-fully-open situations and the pick-up after throttle close, especialy in the working range of the pipe : full-close is nothing happening. rider opens throttle slightly, injection start's to work but at first nothing happens. injection thinks more fule is needed and at some point it all burst very abruptly back into life.

and then there is the situation of +/- 2/3'rd of the rpm of max torgue, "the dip" when the pipe is doing more bad than good.
My ultimate goal is to die young as late as possible !

Post Reply