GEARBOX OIL

[dirk]

Hi folks

i use Motul Transoil Expert (full synthetic).


cheers
Dirk

[smithyrc30]

Is not the stuff.....

If the spec Charles found is indeed the Super Sh1te auto oil then this is most definitely the 'old' stuff. Designed for manuals, not autos and definitely will not give the benefits of the ZF synthetic based stuff.

This also appears to have some of the hypoid additives in, which you most definitely DO NOT want in a wet clutch.

If you are going to use a hypoid oil make sure you use one suitable for plate type LSD's otherwise it will fail your clutch. (The additives eat away at the friction material and destroy it at high temps, ie when you are slipping/engaging the clutch.) Those designed for LSD's have this removed and alternative put in, but this makes the oil more viscous and you loose the friction benefits.

I'm going past super sh1te on the way to work, I'll have a look...

Cheers

[smithyrc30]

Ok I dropped in to Super Sh1te and looked over the range of tat that they sell.

Castrol VMX80 and VMX-M is not what you are looking for.

If you look at the spec sheet the kV at 100C is 12.0cSt and a massive 65cSt at 40C for the M

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_in ... _VMX_M.pdf

for the 80 it is 10.5cSt at 100C and 59.2 at 40C.

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_in ... VMX_80.pdf

Both these oil are for manuals and neither is designed to work with wet clutches. They probably will but you are sacrificing power (the viscosity is too high). The M is for Mitsubishi transmissions, I'm guessing here but they probably have coated synchros which require different friction characteristics.

The Castrol product that fits the bill is Transmax Z.

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_in ... smax_Z.pdf

This is 7.1cSt at 100C and 36cSt at 40C.

This is designed to work in autos and as you can see the viscosity is nearly half that of the others at 40C. Generally the temps you will see in the transmission even racing will not get much higher than 60C even on the hottest of days.

This stuff in Super Sh1te is AU$74 for 4litres. (they did not seem to have any 1litre bottles)

There is a Nulon product that also will work:

http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Full_S ... ion_Fluid/

This is 7.0cSt at 100C and 33.4cSt at 40C

This is AU$18 for 1litre and AU$65 for 4litres.

By comparisson the ZF stuff I use is

6.4cSt at 100C and 28.2cSt at 40C

The Ford Mercon 5 oil is

7.2~8.2cSt at 100C and 38cSt at 40C

The Mercedes spec is:

7.6cSt at 100C and 34cStk at 40C

The GM stuff even Dextron 6 is rubbish (more like the manual oils, and it is designed for autos.....) Don't even entertain it!

Not sure what other products are available, funnily enough I tend to stop looking when I have found one that fits the bill

[TwoStroke Institute]

Well I have been using VMX 80 under race conditions for well over 10years in wet and dry clutch engines. NEVER had any clutch slip or premature wear issues. VMX80 is rebadged MTX.

[smithyrc30]

Never said VMX would not work or cause issues.

What I did say however is the oil is old in spec, and therefore there is something better. TSI confirms this by saying he has used it for 10+ years.

You can see from the viscosities that the synthetic has significant advantages over the VMX oil.

Funny isn't it, we spend thousands fettling the motor, finish polishing the heads, matching ports, fabricating new exhaust systems, changing out reed valves, fitting bigger carbs, pouring $30/litre engine lube oil into the engine all for more power, but the poor old transmision/clutch gets no work or consideration at all....

Is your engine tune really that good that you can chuck 1.5ps up the wall?

[smithyrc30]

I tried all the Motul sites, but I could find no data on the kV of these oils.

Generally this would put me off. If they are not prepared to tell what it is, it generally isn't good enough to bear comparison with the competition.

Marketing speak like 'specially formulated' and 'ideal for use in' mean nothing at all in my opinion.

The engineers language is data and data isn't 'specially formulated...'

On these grounds I would treat the oil with caution. I'm sure it works, but I am 99$ convinced it is not class leading.

I do not pay class leading price for mediocre product.

Cheers

[TwoStroke Institute]

Funny isn't it, we spend thousands fettling the motor, finish polishing the heads, matching ports, fabricating new exhaust systems, changing out reed valves, fitting bigger carbs, pouring $30/litre engine lube oil into the engine all for more power, but the poor old transmision/clutch gets no work or consideration at all....

Well they do actually make more power that's why we do those things. The consideration I give to the transmission is making the output match the ratios THAT's the biggest tuning tip of all.

Is your engine tune really that good that you can chuck 1.5ps up the wall?

Got any emperical evidence to back up that claim? Yes my engines are tuned just fine. I'll take 65HP over 50+1.5HP anyday..........................................

[smithyrc30]

Yup 65 is ok, but it could be 66.5

I was rather under the impression that the standard ratios in the KR box were not that great, and that an R or SP close ratio box was needed to optimize the delivery? The ratios are not even or matched particularly well even for a standard engine, and when you tune it and narrow the power band the discrepancy between gears becomes even more evident

Not sure about you, but I don't have one of those.

Anyway the answer to your question is yes I do have data to back up what I said. Not sure the best way to attach it here though.

It is on my work computer, so will have a think about the best way to present it, and probably the best way to explain what it shows. It is in the form of measured gear loss data, oil temperature and type.

It is not measured on a KR gear box but on a planetary gear set, so the torque numbers are almost meaningless to the KR application, however the change or delta between oils and temperatures etc is the information that is important, not the absolute values. That said the gear set in question has 3 planets and as such has 6 gear mating points which parallels the KR 6 speed box. Thus the trends shown will be valid even though the absolute numbers are not.

Until tomorrow!

[dirk]

I tried all the Motul sites, but I could find no data on the kV of these oils.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/MOTUL/Tr ... 8GB%29.pdf


cheers

Dirk

[smithyrc30]

Trans Expert is not so good. (I did try the UK site, but all I got was balnk screens and annoying back ground music)

1mm2/sec = 1 centistoke

so comparrison with the other oils this one is

108.8cSk at 40C and 15.4cStk at 100C.

About double what you want at 100C and nearly four times the best at 40C.

I would change from this oil.

[KR-1R]

Hi folks

i use Motul Transoil Expert (full synthetic).

cheers
Dirk

IF IT SAYS TWO STROKE GEARBOX OIL

AND WAS A BRAND ENDORSED BY K.SCHWANTZ

IT'LL PROBABLY BE OK ... IT ONLY COSTS NZ$35 ~16 QUID

WE THROW HUNDREDS AWAY ON CHAIN AND SPROCKETS
EVERY 10000 MILES.

HOW ABOUT WHICH CHAIN LUBE PEOPLE LIKE?

have to agree the MOTUL.COM site is absolute rubbish
http://www.motul.fr/uk/conseils/index_moto.html

I will now acknowledge SMITHYRC30 as the resident oil expert,
possibly if I was entering a GP and needed 10/10ths I would be more interested in Kinematic Viscosities etc.
Back in the day I used to buy my bike oil products direct from Shell at the wharf saving about 40%.
SP only have same box as regular S models

Most of 4 stroke bike gearboxes use engine oil as a lube. To reduce wear and increase gearbox life, we include gear additives into bike 4 stroke engine oils. And the oil must not perturb clutch efficiency.
For bike oils, the JASO (Japanese manufacturer association) is very concerned by the clutch sliding problem so they issued some requirements and standards.
Motul 5100 and 3000 oils for 4 stroke engine bikes are JASO MA approved. To complete that, Motul performed the JASO T904 tests on 300V's to be sure that 300V's work properly without any clutch problem.
On the other hand, for cars, there is no gearbox or clutch problem therefore we can use for example friction modifier additives to reduce friction into the engine. This will provide power output improvement.
For bikes we strongly recommend to use bike oils and for cars, we strongly recommend to use car oils

[TwoStroke Institute]

I believe a stopwatch and a dyno.If you can prove a KR or any other 2 stroke makes 1.5HP more on the dyno, or reduces lap times, just by changing oil. I'll by 10 litres tomorrow.
What road based boxes are not a compromise? Who said anything about narrowing the power curve?

[Yatsushiro]

I've used Putoline GP10 in my TDR race bike till now, without issue.

The specs seem ballpark:

Density at 15 °C, kg/l 0,877
Viscosity 40 °C, mm²/s 33,50
Viscosity 100 °C, mm²/s 5,50
Viscosity Index 98
Flash Point COC, °C 205
Pour Point, °C -40

Someone on the RGV Forum found 1.5~2bhp on an 80cc race bike, just by changing to this oil...

[Garry]

i use this - 5 changes for under a tenner

http://www.wilkinsonplus.com/Car-Mainte ... YYKg%3D%3D

[smithyrc30]

[quote="Yatsushiro"]I've used Putoline GP10 in my TDR race bike till now, without issue.

The specs seem ballpark:

Density at 15 °C, kg/l 0,877
Viscosity 40 °C, mm²/s 33,50
Viscosity 100 °C, mm²/s 5,50
Viscosity Index 98
Flash Point COC, °C 205
Pour Point, °C -40

Someone on the RGV Forum found 1.5~2bhp on an 80cc race bike, just by changing to this oil...[/quote]

Paul that looks a very good oil. Maybe I was wrong to stop looking when I got tothe ZF oil.....

Interesting on the pour point, normally the lower this temperaure the thinner the oil is, the ZF oil is -60C, interesting that they have managed to bring this up a bit.

At least there are others out there looking as well. =D>

Can anyone tell me how to stick graphs or pictures up?

I got all the data into a visually 'pleasing' pack, I just don't know how to stick it into this forum so everyone can see it.

Cheers